PLEASE NOTE: This is a minimally-edited transcript that originates from a program that uses AI.
Anita Rao 0:00
This is Embodied, our show about sex, relationships and health. I'm Anita Rao. When journalist Meghan Keane was in her late 20s, an opportunity fell into her lap. She was asked to start a show for NPR that would give actionable advice to listeners. You might have heard it.
Clip from Life Kit 0:18
You're listening to life kit from NPR.
Anita Rao 0:23
While at work, Meghan had become known for being a steady, calm presence who could bring the best out of everyone. On a personal level, she was feeling a lot less put together.
Meghan Keane 0:34
I was a few months off of a breakup where I had been blindsided for the second time and I didn't have a lot of confidence, to be quite honest about how I thought about my work and myself and life kit was really an opportunity to throw myself into something that I was like, I think I could do this.
Anita Rao 0:55
Life kit is now into its sixth year, and Meghan has learned a lot about giving advice. She even recently authored her own self help book, party of one be your own best life partner. When I read it last fall, I was like, this is some really good advice, but more than the specifics of the advice, Megan doles out, what struck me was her approach, so I wanted to hear some of her secrets for giving good advice with a hope that those skills can help all of us looking ahead to 2025 so you've said before that one of the things that makes you good at giving advice is knowing what makes advice not work. So let's get that out of the way first, what makes advice not work? In your opinion?
Meghan Keane 1:40
Sure. Well, the really bad advice, I think we can all agree, comes from this place of shame and judgment from the person who's given the advice, right? They're assuming something's wrong with you. You should feel ashamed for even being in this situation, right? And I just feels like no one is really wanting to accept advice within that headspace, but sometimes just, like, flippant, bad advice just comes from a place of not being able to see another person's perspective, or can't even imagine that someone would be in this situation, right? You know, on life kit, we thought, we think a lot about, like, money advice, right? We give a lot of financial advice, and we never want to think, Oh, well, you don't have $2,000 in your emergency account. That's that's so bad you need to work on that. Where instead we try to be like, let's actually, like, see what you can do, right? And so good advice, it comes from a place of non judgment, and it's an honest place of wanting to help and being really open. As soon as you're in a trap of, like, giving advice, and you're saying, Well, this is the only way that this is supposed to be. I don't think that's helpful for anyone. And then when you receive really good advice, it almost feels like this aha moment, right? It kind of crystallizes something for you where you're like, Wow, I never thought about it. Or it's landing for in a different way, for the first time for you,
Anita Rao 2:57
is there a time that comes to mind when you got some really bad advice.
Meghan Keane 3:01
Yeah. I mean, this comes from a place of, I think this person just wanted to give me a solution, because I kept complaining about singleness, the idea of just treat singleness from dating like it's a job, meaning you should put all of your energy into it, like, play the numbers game, right? Like, that's a that's a favorite one. People like to trot out to singles. This idea that I had to put so much obsessive passion that I do into my career, into dating, it doesn't make a lot of sense, because getting into a relationship requires the consent of someone else, right? And so I think it was not bad that it was in the sense that it was judgmental, but it was more just like not seeing the realities of modern dating and, you know, attacking it with that same vigor of a job search, just mixed for a recipe for burnout.
Anita Rao 3:59
It's funny you say that because you and I both are in professions where research is a key component of what we do, we kind of spend all of our time, you know, on the internet, looking for the answers to things, understanding about how other people live. And I feel like for me, that has kind of made it a challenge to not treat my own personal problems with that same level of rigor and intensity, like I make my own problems into a work research project, I'd love to hear about how you handle that as someone who has a very similar kind of professional job. How do you approach getting advice for things that you need advice on in your own life?
Meghan Keane 4:35
Yeah, I think you're right. I we're both in this career where you feel like there's if we just like, dig a little deeper, if we make one more phone call, we can get to the bottom of something. And I think a lot of the advice I've had to learn that works for me is that there are a lot of options, and that overthinking is not actually the answer, which is something I learned about in the research of my book, this idea that you can think yourself. Out of a problem is actually counterintuitive to how our brains work. If it's a problem like, how am I going to land this interview right? Like, what are all these other ways? Like, you can come up with finite examples of how to close that loop and then you can move on. But if it's a question like, why am I still single? Or, why do I feel this bad? That's more existential. You can't actually place that same level of rigor of thinking to that problem, because what happens with rumination is that there's a lot of self blame that happens, right? And they're usually questions that don't have an answer. And so what I learned from my research is sometimes it's best to actually just take a pause and take a break. Sometimes the answer will come to you more out of the blue. And sometimes these big existential questions, they don't have answers, and that's okay, too.
Anita Rao 5:47
Yes, I love that. So we have been talking about the you of today, who has written this book, who is, you know, years into your career, working on life kit. But I'd love to go back to the beginning of when life kit was emerging, and understand a little bit about who Megan was at that point in time.
Meghan Keane 6:08
Yeah. So before I worked on life kit, I was at another NPR podcast that has since been sunsetted, called invisibilia, and it was all about human behavior, and it was deep in psychology and big ideas, and I got tapped to start this service journalism show that eventually became life kit. And I thought to myself, God, I really want to keep doing, you know, this type of journalism, this long form, character driven. And yowe Shaw, who was worked on the show with me, was like, Everything helps everything. And I that is one of the best pieces of ice. I forgot, is like your experience in this one place will inform your next journey, right? And I did not see myself as an editor, as a showrunner, and I could feel these kind of new powers kind of growing within me. And it was, you know, that kind of classic thing of proving you can do something you didn't think you could do, and it honestly changed my life.
Anita Rao 7:02
You said you got tapped, and I want to know more about that. Are you someone who was always giving advice to people in your life? Were you kind of someone that your colleagues turned to and they were like, Aha, okay, Megan, is the right, right fit for this? Or what do you think it was about kind of you and your your advice giving personality that made you get tapped for that.
Meghan Keane 7:24
Yeah, one of the best pieces of feedback I've gotten about my style of work and how I work in a team is that I never add fuel to a fire. And what I take that to mean is I don't escalate just for the state of escalating. I really start to think about, okay, what are the different angles here? What are the different stakeholders? How can we approach this in the right way? Whether it is just taking a pause, let's take a beat and come back to this right? That's always an option, or let's just try something different. And I think my natural personality is I am just curious about other people, and also, being a journalist, I want to make sure it's advice that is worth giving, right? Like, I like being able to say, Hey, if you try this, it might help you. And you know, I like giving that those resources to people. So I think when I was tapped to do life Kit, part of it was that I was like a steady presence. And I'm also a generalist at heart. I love knowing a little bit about a lot of different things, rather than a lot about one subject. So that kind of dovetailed perfectly into into life kit, to be able to deep dive into a lot of different topics, and, you know, respect the listener and make sure they're getting rid getting really good advice.
Anita Rao 8:44
So I want to talk about that respect piece, because as a as a listener of life care, one of the things that I admire is that it seems like you all consistently have people that I want to be getting advice from. And that's not always true for like, other advice columns I read, or other advice shows I listen to, and so I'd love to hear about kind of your personal philosophy on, like who to turn to to get advice from. How do you find the right person to get the advice that you need for a given topic?
Meghan Keane 9:14
Sure, so I always think of life kit as that friend that happens to know a lot about a subject that you always call or text first before you start doing something, right? So it's not going to be an exhaustive manual, because I don't think anyone would ever want to listen to that kind of podcast, right? But someone who you can get kind of quickly at the land and can give you some a few like high level ideas, and it's always super practical and that you're going to have some like, key takeaways to, like, run with, and then get going as soon as you listen to the podcast. And also from there, one of our key tenets is that we're really friendly and we're approachable, right, like I knew from an early time at life. We were never going to be the podcast that tells you to do something very risky, right? That might have a really high payoff but could also really harm you. That just didn't seem like a very NPR way to approach things, and not how I am eager. So I wanted the advice, like I said, to be responsible and respectful, and it's very friendly. And so when we're looking for people to book, we're looking for people who also kind of fit that bill, who are friendly and but also have thought really deeply about subjects, and are experts. And they're not always super like, you know, well known people that have books, right? Sometimes it's just we make sure we find that really good gastroenterologist, right, or cardiologist that can talk to you about heart health, that can really explain things on a human level, rather than, you know, in a way that feels really inaccessible. And if you stick to those ideas of, you know, being respectful, inclusive, friendly, it kind of naturally has us find the right experts for the episodes,
Anita Rao 11:09
well curated and accessible expert advice is something that life kit has become known for. Their episodes about credit scores. Helped me understand my own credit score for the very first time. While Meghan loves this kind of expert input, she also gets a lot of advice from her mom. We'll hear more about that just ahead, you're listening to embodied from North Carolina public radio, a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina. At Chapel Hill, follow us on Instagram and Tiktok or at embodied W UNC. You can also hear embodied as a podcast, follow and subscribe on your platform of choice. We'll be right back.
This is embodied. I'm Anita Rao. The last piece of really great advice I got was from my friend Hannah. After waking up from yet another anxiety dream about a big life decision, I sent her a three minute long voice memo. She responded with an incredibly simple yet poetic phrase, you always have full permission to change your mind. Those words were gold and a reminder that good advice can take you from a place of total stuckness to a place of calm. Meghan Keane is a pro at giving this kind of counsel. She's the author of the new self help book party of one, and the founder of NPR life kit when she needs advice, her go to person is often her mom.
Meghan Keane 12:45
My mom was a social worker here in Washington, DC, at St Elizabeth, and she worked with a population who had, you know, addiction issues and mental health issues that she helped them basically find jobs and did like, like, career counseling for them, help them find suits to go on job interviews, things like that. And so I think that really shaped how she sees a lot of life. And you know how to help people and think about how to talk to different types of people, about how to get what they need or what they want. And my mom has a really good emotional intelligence that I think she gave to me, and I think she is really good at looking at a situation and kind of seeing the different forces that are at play with people, and then, okay, how do you proceed from there? I would say her best advice beyond like cooking, she's a great cook. She can always give me good kitchen hacks. So she's good for that, but she's also really good at navigating social situations and like, how to talk with people, because I think so much of professional life is dealing with other people, and we're never taught how to do that, right? But, yeah, I think she's the advice giver who really can see the emotional landscape and do that kind of people work and give you good advice about that?
Anita Rao 14:05
You say that she's really emotionally intelligent and that you have kind of developed that as well. Do you think that that is a skill that can be cultivated? Because I feel like, as an advice giver, you want to be emotionally intelligent, but can people who maybe are bad at giving advice become more emotionally intelligent. Like, is that a learned skill?
Meghan Keane 14:23
Yeah, I do think it is. And, you know, all it takes is showing people other perspectives. And I think a little bit of humility and vulnerability and wanting to learn how to give different advice is good. And I think all it takes is, like, you know, a little bit of empathy and a little bit of open to, like, learning and curiosity. Like, for instance, I think about we have an episode on life kit about how to help a friend who's grieving, and it's an episode that talks a lot about, like, you know, what, what things can you say or not say, or actions. And you know, for me, I'm someone who lost a father about two. Many years ago now, and I was like, I think I know everything about grief, but then, you know, I've had friends now, I'm in my mid 30s, who have lost siblings, right? They've lost partners, and it's a type of grief I've never experienced so but I've been noticing how if I just stay open and receptive and be present, I can give advice in a way that is appropriate to their experience, even though it's not my direct lived experience.
Anita Rao 15:23
How do you balance that? Because I think there's a tendency when someone asks for advice and you have that experience has happened to me. The other day, someone was talking about getting into a long distance relationship, and my partner and I have are coming to the end of a long stretch of long distance and I felt my immediate instinct was to just be like, here are the things you do, schedule visits every three weeks, do this and do that, and like, using your personal experience as a way to inform the advice you give while not overdoing it. Because there is that feeling when someone gives you advice where you're like you're just talking about yourself. This isn't even relevant to me. So how do you balance that, like what to share from your own experience versus where to gather inside and information from somewhere else.
Meghan Keane 16:03
Yeah, I think that well, one, I think you should always just, like, hear out the person first, right? What are they actually struggling with? Before you go, Ooh, I have an idea which I sometimes have to, like, you know, calm myself down, because I do have a nice reservoir of reporting that we've done in life. Kit, yeah, I have to calm myself down just being like a witness to someone hearing what actually they are concerned about or struggling with, and then turning to them and being like, Okay, I have some ideas. Are you open to hearing some and getting that consent, as it were, and then kind of moving the conversation from a maybe, like, venting or, you know, place of this is something I'm stressed about into perspective taking I also think the phrase, what I have found helpful is helpful. So you can couch it as like, this is clearly my experience. And I'll tell you why these things worked, and not just pretending like they're universals, that because you live this, it always works, right? You know, in terms of like, singleness, people be like, well, I met my partner on a dating app, so therefore all dating apps are great. That totally washes away an experience that someone in front of you is having. And so I try to really make sure that whatever I have that is personal, I It's very targeted and very short, because often when someone is talking to you and needing advice, they're not always ready to receive it, right? And so having that moment of like, okay, like, we heard you out. I have some ideas. Would you like to hear some of them? Here's what's worked for me. I'll tell you why. But if here's maybe an alternative or a flip side, and then knowing when to, like, kind of read the room and be like, Okay, we're gonna put this away for now. This person has kind of exhausted their resources at the at this moment. But sometimes people are like, they are excited. They're like, Well, tell me more. Like, I know I have friends who always call up other friends, and they're like, hungry for other people's experiences. So it is, a lot of it just reading the room and the person in front of you.
Anita Rao 17:59
I want to talk a little bit about your book party of one and kind of continuing that thread that you were mentioning, I know that you grew up reading a lot of self help books, which are often written in a way that's like, this is what you should do. Follow these 10 steps, and you'll be a better person, you'll be more successful, you'll be blah, blah, blah. What was your experience reading self help literature about relationships, and how did that inform your thinking about relationships before you started thinking about writing your own book?
Meghan Keane 18:29
Well, I've always loved advice columns. I'm always just interested in, like, what other people are thinking. It's to me, the black box of other people's human brains is fascinating to me. Like, what's going on in there, like, what are you dealing with? And in college, I read a lot of memoir, which I felt was like kind of an extension of advice columns, in a way, right where it's like, here's my lived experience, here's how I got through something. And I found those really powerful. And then I would say, after a pretty big breakup I had in my mid to late 20s, I started voraciously reading self help books because I was feeling bad and I wanted to feel better, and I was reading a lot of other journalists self help books. So there's a great one by Sarah Eckel called it's not you 27 wrong reasons you're single, and I would just like underline and underline and reread passages and go back and remind myself like you're not alone. These ideas about why you're single are a lot of myths, and maybe the fact is that you're single just because you have high standards and you're not settling, and that's a good thing, right? Not a deficit. And then another book that I read was how to be single and happy by clinical psychologist Jenny Taitz, who I also ended up interviewing for my book. And I thought she and Sarah both take a really smart approach, which is, like, it's not to say, like, just be happy. Their approach was very here's some evidence. You know, why you should maybe even. To be more focused on living a good life. And for me, like lacing in these pieces of evidence, right? Kind of help grounded me in a way that other self help books that are just like, well, here's how to date and try rewriting your profile this way, right? Or just like, here are all these like mindsets that someone just makes up were not helpful. So no surprise here. I gravitated towards journalists who were looking into data, because then it just felt more like real and tangible to me.
Anita Rao 20:31
So you had all of this data you knew in your mind it is doable to be happy as a single person. There are many models of successful, happy, single lives, all of these reasons that I've thought it was me or a problem, but there was something in your heart that was still not feeling great and feeling like some kind of loss. So talk to me about that dissonance and that disconnect between knowing it was perfectly fine and feeling like you you didn't feel quite right.
Meghan Keane 21:00
Yeah, completely. Because you do see a lot of social media posts and conversation about how a lot of people are single and happy about it, right? Or they're child free, or, you know, they're like, I never want to get married. And, you know, researcher Bella de Paulo coined the phrase to describe that. It's called single at heart. And I was like, I don't think I quite fit that, but I love that that's happening. How do I get to feeling that? Anyways? Because it seems like a good way to just go about life. And this disconnect, I think, was a result of living in a culture that really takes a lot of time to have propaganda and push the idea that marriage is the only way to be happy and a whole human and, you know, I'm in my mid 30s, I kind of knew that the princess, Disney Princess life was not real, right? I like, I knew all these things, but even still, these messages still were seeping in, and I think that's what created the disconnect. So I was thinking to myself, Okay, how do we bridge these things so I can live a happy life no matter what? And what that meant was focusing less on Okay, now, how do I get the relationship right? Because as soon as you make a relationship a goal, it's immediately pass, fail, right? You either have it or you don't. And I was like, Okay, well, how do I live a full life that feels fulfilling? And how do I sit with my emotions, even if I'm sad? How do I deal with rumination, all these things that feel very internal as well? A lot of being single is that you're spending a lot of time on your own, and so you're kind of, you can be stuck in your own head sometimes, and not see the forest for the trees. And I wanted to be able to give resources for how to have a happy internal life and then push that out to your external life as well. So no matter what your relationship status, you felt good with your own company.
Anita Rao 22:54
One of the things that you do really well in this book is encourage people to get really clear about what they're longing for. And there's a way to have this kind of like, Oh, I'm longing for a partner. And it's like, what do you want from a partner? What are the specific things that are missing in your life? And reading through that and thinking through that was really helpful for me in reframing this conversation that I feel like has been happening a lot in the past few years about loneliness and the loneliness epidemic, and I'd love for you to help us kind of understand your personal distinction between loneliness and being alone, and figuring out what you're actually longing for when you say you're longing for a relationship.
Meghan Keane 23:35
Yeah, there's often this idea that you know singles are so lonely, right, that if you don't have a romantic partner, you are automatically lonely and well, one that's just kind of unfair, because the research shows that singles often have more social connections than married people. So that's just not true. But then it kind of it stigmatizes loneliness, which is, you know, as we know, an epidemic, especially in America. And the reality is that anyone can be lonely at any time. So understanding the difference between alone versus lonely, I think, is very helpful. So lonely is the state of being dissatisfied with being alone, and alone is just you happen to be by yourself. I'm alone in this apartment right now. Well, I have my dog, Margot, so I guess I'm not technically fully alone, but there's no other humans here, right? So I'm alone, but I'm not lonely. I'm in conversation with you. We're connecting, right? And I ran into this research a few years ago from the late University of Chicago researcher John Cacioppo, who's you know, was like a preeminent scholar on loneliness, and what he found from his research is that loneliness is kind of akin to this biological signal like thirst or hunger, right? And you wouldn't feel bad about asking for a drink of water if you're thirsty or trying to get something to eat if you were really hungry, loneliness is just telling you, hey, you should seek out. Some social connection right now. And I think once you boil down that loneliness is a kind of neutral signal that your body is trying to tell you something, you're more able to get what you need. You know, it's, I know it's not just as simple. I know there's a lot of barriers, and, you know, other circumstances that prevent people from sometimes seeking out connection, right? But I think once you start to understand, Oh, I'm feeling lonely, maybe it's time I do text that friend or reach out to them, or set up plans for another time, or just make a phone call, you know, making these small gestures to then bring you closer to a community or family in connection, you see an off ramp from the loneliness. And I think that's just a kinder way for all of us to to be and to think about loneliness
Anita Rao 25:51
for people who maybe feel like they are where you were, where they had that disconnection between the head and the heart of knowing things and feeling another way are there, like, particular practices that you would offer to help kind of integrate the knowledge and get clear about kind of moving out of that place of kind of spinning around?
Meghan Keane 26:13
Yeah, I did a lot of research into techniques that come from dialectical behavior therapy, and that's a DBT, and that's a school of psychology and thought to help people deal with difficult emotions and a lot of suffering that comes from being dissatisfied with the state of singleness, is resistance, right? I mean, that's kind of the root of a lot of frustration, right? Is you want something, you can't have it, and you're resisting that. So one of the tools in DBT is radical acceptance. It's just noticing that you're resisting, taking a beat to say, I noticed that I'm resisting, and then just telling yourself things are exactly how they are right now. And it doesn't mean that you have to like the circumstances, and it's also not an excuse to be in a harmful or bad situation. It's basically helping you deal with the reality that is in front of you and accepting it and then moving forward with intelligence. And then another wonderful tool I love from DBT, another acronym here is ABC, please. And so the please part of the equation is essentially making sure that you're eating well, and kind of the basics of well being. But the ABC part is super helpful. It's accumulating positive so making sure you have something to look forward to every day, or do something that feels good, right? Getting cuddles in with my dog, Margot, making plans. And then the B is building mastery. And so that just means doing something that makes you feel makes you feel accomplished, just things that you can have that like cross off your to do list, feeling right. And then C is coping ahead, which is just looking ahead to a scenario where you know you're probably gonna be frustrated or sad or angry, and just imagining yourself doing really well in that scenario. It's kind of a way to not necessarily, like, rehearse exactly what you're going to say, but to think, Oh, I'm going home for the holidays. I know that this aunt is going to ask me about who am I dating, and this uncle is going to be really invasive about my dating life. I'm going to imagine myself just like brushing it off and then passing the Christmas ham and everything's fine, right? And I know these things sound very like small But together, they do have an impact where they basically are building up your positive reserves and so that you are noticing more of the good things in life and and building up that confidence.
Anita Rao 28:37
So this kind of brings me to this difference between asking for support and asking for advice to things that are often conflated. How do you approach this in your own life? Do you preface something by saying, I'm not looking for advice, I'm just trying to say this out loud. Or do you have some kind of tools or ways you help flag to people in your life, whether you're actually looking for them to give you advice, or you're just looking to to get some support around something.
Meghan Keane 29:03
I mean, you nailed it. I just communicate it right? Sometimes I know I am in a like, high arousal, very emotional state, where I am very angry or I'm very frustrated, and I know I'm not thinking clearly. And so those aren't the times when I really want to hear advice because I'm not receptive to it. And sometimes, if I call my mom, I'll be like, I just need to vent right now and then we can think more about what to do next. But let me just tell you what is bothering me. And then often, sometimes, when I think back to those times when I vent, I'm like, wow, I was a little over the top or like, that actually wasn't how I actually feel about this situation. But, yeah, just saying, like, I actually just need to, like, talk about this right now and vent about it is super helpful, and it's interesting. I I didn't realize that it was something that was actually really beneficial to to myself until I started doing some more research. There's a psychologist and neurologist, Ethan cross at university. Michigan, and he reminded me that venting, another word for it is CO rumination, right? And rumination, as we know, is when you're just kind of spinning your wheels a little bit, you're not actually getting anywhere. And what he said to me was, look, venting is fine, as long as you get to a point then where you can get into perspective shifting mode. And he also talked to me about how a risk of venting and only staying in the venting stage is that you burn out your friends and loved ones if they hear the same thing over and over again and they're not seeing change or even a different mindset about it, it gets kind of exhausting, right? And so it's not to say like you have to now have a perfect attitude, and you're always going to go get them right, but thinking, Okay, what's a perspective changer for myself that would actually help and to hear from a friend like, I've been through this before, I can get through it again. Or, you know, I just need support, like, or just offering someone like, you know, I don't know what to tell you or like, what would make it better. But I just really love you sometimes, in place of advice, just like sending someone like compassion is, like, really helpful. And I think we've all been there where it's like, you know, you not everyone can relate to everything or have the perfect piece of advice, but it goes a long way to say, like, Man, that sounds really tough. And I really love you, and I'm here for you.
Anita Rao 31:21
Say less and be present more. That is advice I will definitely be taking. But are there any special case rules for advice for topics like dating or sex? I'll put that question to Megan just after this break. As always, follow embodied on Instagram and Tiktok. We're at embodied W UNC, you can also hear the podcast version of this show by following embodied on your platform of choice. We'll be right back.
This is embodied. I'm Anita Rao, if 2025 is the year you're hoping to become known for giving good advice. Megan Kane has some tips. She's the founder of NPR life kit, so she knows what she's talking about. One important first step, she says, is to avoid any shaming or judgment. Another non negotiable for her personally, is no unsolicited dating advice, which is a little funny, since her recently published book, party of one is all about rethinking relationships,
Meghan Keane 32:32
yes, so since writing the book, I mean, this is not a reveal, I'm very public about this. I actually did get into a long term relationship. And it was actually really interesting to write the book while I was entering into this relationship, because I was like, Oh, I still need all these skills. Yeah, I still need to, you know, I still need to think about how to decenter, you know, a romantic relationship, to keep good friends in my life, to to think about my rumination, to handle and process my own emotions. And one of the big things that also had really keeping myself and my partner accountable and is how we treat our single friends. And one of them, like you said, is I don't offer dating advice because, one i I never know if someone of my friends is actively dating a lot or not dating, and what that means for them, or how they're what kind of reaction they're gonna have. I also don't offer dating advice, because I don't know anything about how I actually found my partner, other than it happened. You know, like I what, it wasn't that I was more spiritually enlightened, or I, like, use this one technique or whatever it was, luck and timing, you know. And I also don't want to treat my single friends dating life like it's entertainment, right? You know? I don't want to make it seem like it's the most interesting thing about them. They have passions and work and hobbies and dreams, and, you know, a lot of other things I can talk to them about. So my role is I don't give dating advice unless someone explicitly brings up their dating life and then says to me, you need to give me advice. And to the point now where I have friends who basically shake me by their shoulders like proverbially, being like, yes, you were allowed. I'm giving you consent. Like you're like, I know your dumb rules. And even then, if they're asking me genuine advice, of like, Hey, I'm dating this person, here's all this like information about them. What are your thoughts or feelings? I really try to approach it with such like care and like reason, because I also have single friends who come to me who say, you know, oh, my friend really doesn't like the person I'm dating. And they were like, You need to dump him right now. And they're like, you know, people can go to extremes. To extremes. So this is a long way of saying that I try to treat my single friends like, almost like there are other romantic partners in my life, you know, like I watch their dogs. I make sure I hang out with them one on one. I don't bring my partner to every Hangout, right? I give them birthday gifts. You know, I pick them up from the airport. If they ask me, I try to go out of my way when I can, because, you know, I want to make sure that they know that they're a part of, you know, my community.
Anita Rao 35:09
How about sex advice? Does your hesitancy around dating advice also extend to sex?
Meghan Keane 35:15
Weirdly, no, I think that's just because that's like what girlfriends talk about a lot of times, you know. And so for me, talking about sex is more like, this is what I've found, and what's interesting to me. And like, oh, has that been like, part of your experience? It's kind of like you're just trading information, right? I mean, that's advice, I know, but yeah, rather than being like, definitely do this or whatever. And so I think it's kind of like an open part of, you know, girlhood, as it were, and female friendship in particular there. It's interesting though, because there is, yeah, there's this like idea that singles have no privacy when it comes to sex and relationships, right? That their sex life is up for discussion at any moment and and if you're in a couple, it's like behind this, like veil of secrecy, right? And privacy. So I definitely don't just like offer it fresh off the cuff after How are you doing, but reading the room to know it's like, appropriate time and safe time to talk about it.
Anita Rao 36:22
Okay? So to end this show, we are going to see your advice, giving skills in action, listening to some clips that we got from listeners. So first, this is a message from Gretchen,
Gretchen 36:36
okay, I'm 62 year old, white woman, divorced with grown children, and sort of toying around in the dating arena, but at 62 it is challenging, and also recognizing how much I value my personal space, my solitude, getting to know myself At this phase of my life, I'd love to hear more conversations with older women choosing singlehood or not and all of the cultural influences throughout our lives.
Anita Rao 37:12
Okay, so what are your initial thoughts on advice for older single women like Gretchen on finding community and figuring out whether or not to date.
Meghan Keane 37:23
Yeah, I would say that Gretchen is actually in a kind of great scenario, because she, I think, is what Marissa Franco, this researcher who I interviewed in the book, she calls transitioners, people who are in a phase of life where there's a big change happening, right? You know, they're divorced, or they moved, or they're just in a new life stage, right? And those are the people who are also willing to like, make new friends and make new community. And so what Marissa told me is, look for other transitioners in your life. Think about who else like has an interest that you like, and put yourself out there more in the friendship space. Actually, I know that's like a, usually a phrase people use for dating, but put yourself out there for friendship and community. And you know, I don't say these things to be like, Okay, this is how you're gonna now meet someone to date. Necessarily, it's more like you were. The more places you can find community and with new people, the better your life will feel, in general, I think. And then dating becomes less of the only kind of, like, you know, personal hobby that you have, and because then you have all these under wonderful things going on, if you like, your own space too, you know, having a hobby is a great way to also cultivate that. And then I would say also in terms of, you know, finding other, you know, maybe single women around your age who are more invested in being single is like, when you find people like that in your life, even if you don't know them that well, is just make the invitation, or often so scared to reach out to people. But I have never gotten an invitation to a social thing that I'm like, Why did they invite me? You know, like, even if I'm like, You know what? I mean, it's like, it's not that, like, you know, maybe I'm like, Oh, I'll be tired or whatever. Like, my life things are a little crazy right now, or whatever. But I've never been, like, offended that someone invited me. And so when people see that you've made the effort to invite them to something like, Hey, we're actually gonna go to the movies this week. Would you like to come? Or, hey, like, I hear you talking about starting a writing group, or wish you have more time to write. Like, I love going to this cafe. Would you join me? And, like, maybe we could, you know, chat about writing or something, you know, putting a box around the kind of time that you're doing and making that invitation. I think one kind of, you know, obviously ups your chances of building friendship and community, and then two people are more likely to then ask you to things, right, and to invite you to things because you thought of them. So, yeah, I would say, look for other people who are in similar situations as you, and then make the invitation.
Anita Rao 39:55
Yeah. I think the only other thing that I would add is we did a show earlier this year about Gray Divorce. Yes, and I think for Gretchen, like there are so many other people who are in your exact boat right now, many people that are kind of unraveling these narratives that they have inherited about what their lives should look like at this point in their life, and who are kind of reconfiguring relationships with their kids and so many, so many of the things that Gretchen is going through, there's like, a huge cohort of other people going through as well. So yeah, find other transitioners. I think there is a lot of community out there for you. Totally. Okay. The next one is also relationship related, but a little bit more about friendship. This is Nick.
Nick 40:34
What's the secret to maintaining friendships as you get older, among all of your different peer groups, people who might be in different life situations. Some people might be caregivers to parents, some people might be caregivers to children. Some people might be in wildly different income brackets. Some are partnered, some are single. What's the secret to bringing them all together and maintaining a through line for yourself as a parent to two young kids, it feels increasingly hard just to come up with conversation topics among people I've known for years.
Anita Rao 41:12
All right, Megan, what do you have to say to Nick?
Meghan Keane 41:16
Sure, I'll answer the last part of his question. First, where he said he feels like he has not a lot of conversation topics to pull from, from people he's known for years. And I would say that's an opportunity to get really curious about your friend again. This is something that comes from the director of the Harvard development study that looked at a series of like if something like 700 men over like decades and decades, and they found that the key to a happy, healthy life was relationships of all kinds. They didn't single out marriage. They didn't single out romantic relationships. They said relationships of all kinds. And one of his pieces of advice was exactly that, get curious about people you've known for forever. Ask them a question that you've never asked them before, right? You know, dig a little deeper. I think that'll help deepen the friendship. And then two, I would get a little creative about how you spend time with that friend. I'm a big fan of short, spontaneous hangouts now, because I think it's the kind of time spent that people actually crave because I think right now so many people are like, can't wait to see you. Are you available three months from now, right? And, and it's like, well, that's because we think, Oh, spending quality time means a dinner drinks, right? Like, hours and hours, and it's not, you know, that's part of the equation. And those are obviously really awesome, or, like, a weekend away or whatever. But I find, if you can be spontaneous about being like, Hey, we're gonna go, like, pick up bagels real quick and then go to the park. Are you around or, like, I'm in your neighborhood? Do you just want to go for a quick walk, or I'm running an errand? Do you want to tag along? They might say, No. They might not be the friend who wants to do those things. But I find that when I offer these kind of, like, quick, spontaneous moments of friendship. People are like, Oh, that's great. Like, I can't today, but I'll try you next time again. It's that idea that they'll be like, it just Yeah, increases these opportunities to see each other. Because I think that's the kind of friendship that we all kind of miss from, you know, from college right, where you're like, walking down the dorm Hall and you're just have these kind of, like, quick moments of, hey, we're all hanging out down, down the hall. Do you want to hang out?
Anita Rao 43:20
Yes, yes, exactly. And I think also, I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this as a millennial who is, like, really averse to the phone, but I was recently out of town for a couple of months, and I had a friend who's like, really lovely about being intentional about friendship. And she's like, how about you? Like, when you're driving to the grocery store, you just try calling me and like, do that for the whole two months you're there. And like, I'm sure at some point it'll, like, will line up and I'll be able to answer and be able to catch up. And I was like, You know what? That's actually, like, it takes the pressure off so much because I'm not, like, trying to set up a time for a virtual phone date. I'm just like, I'm gonna call you. I'm gonna try, and we're gonna just, like, hope that, you know, hopefully, with like, spontaneity and serendipity, it, I think it does work out, and the effort makes a big difference. You feel more connected just knowing that that person was thinking about you.
Meghan Keane 44:07
Yeah, it feels good, too. When I get a phone call from a friend who I haven't talked to in a while, I'm I'm never like, why haven't you called me? Or, you know, I we haven't been talking. It's like, Oh, I'm so glad you called me. Thanks for calling
Anita Rao 44:17
Exactly, exactly. Okay, last one about something a little bit more big picture. From Daniel, okay,
Daniel 44:24
I am thinking about, or have been thinking about, a big life shift in terms of going back to school and, like, trying to apply for a PhD program. But I don't really feel like I have the tools to, like, evaluate whether or not that's the right decision for me. So I'm trying to understand, how can you know when a big life change is the right move for you?
Anita Rao 44:51
Okay, Meghan, I think y'all have done a life kit episode on like making a big life change.
Meghan Keane 44:57
So yes, we've done it too. Yes. So. So Well, one, there's the financial aspect, right? Can you afford to go back to school? Right? That's a whole other question. I am a huge fan of getting under the values of a goal, because a goal can honestly kind of feel a little random, right? Where it's just like, I want a PhD, it's like, okay, well, why do you want a PhD? What values are being fulfilled as a result of getting the PhD, because once you get that, and you spend several years and time and energy and money doing that, if it's just to get the piece of paper, that's not going to really fulfill you, right? So thinking about like, Okay, what values are going to serve this goal and are they values that I really embody already? Are they values that I think are actually important? Are they values that I want to work on more? Because values and how you step into them drive your behavior more than just being like I want this thing because it's harder to work towards. I just want this one thing because I want it, so I would really Examine your values, and as your is your behavior actually matching those values, and can you see moving towards it? Because it's also then getting under the hood of maybe, maybe I don't actually want the PhD. Maybe I want to just read more and be you know, I value academia, and so maybe it means I want to join, like, a book club with fellow nerds about this topic or whatever, right? Or maybe it is actually, yeah, I really do want this PhD, because it's going to advance my career, which, and I care about, you know, working hard and making sure that I advance my career in this way. So I would think about, you know, the why and the values underneath the goal. And that should hopefully reveal the answer.
Anita Rao 46:38
I love that. Okay, to wrap up, I am going to ask you to do something that you all do on life kit, spontaneously. If you were to give three takeaways for how to give good advice, what would they be sure?
Meghan Keane 46:52
Okay, take away one come from a place of being non judgmental and being open to seeing other people's experiences and being open to a lot of different ways of how something might get done. So yeah, no shaming, no judgment. Take away. Two, I would say, read the room. Know when it's time to give the advice, or when it's just time to let your friend vent and ask for permission to give advice. And then, three, your experience is not the universal experience, remembering that other people have gone through different things and have different triggers and have different kind of mindsets. And, you know, giving the personal anecdotes in like little bits and pieces, but don't just assume the way that you did it and it worked out for you is the way it's always supposed to be done. And then, I guess a bonus one is sometimes you don't need to give advice. Just holding space for someone and giving compassion back to them, and being there for them and saying I'm here for you is good enough. Sometimes
Anita Rao 47:51
you nailed the assignment. Meghan Keane, thank you so much for the conversation. It was such a pleasure talking with you.
Meghan Keane 47:57
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Anita Rao 48:06
Meghan Keane's new book is called "Party of One: Be Your Own Best Life Partner." I want to also give a special thanks to folks who sent us their thoughts and advice questions. Gretchen, Nick and Daniel, thank you. If you have anything you want embodied to talk about, or anything you need advice on, the embodied inbox is always open. Send us an email embodied at W unc.org you can also leave us a message in our virtual mailbox. Speak pipe. Find that link in the show notes of every podcast episode or on the sidebar of our website. Embodied W unc.org, you can also find embodied on Instagram and Tiktok. Our handle is at embodied W UNC. Today's episode was produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Nina Scott is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our technical director. Quilla wrote our theme music. This program is recorded at the American Tobacco Historic District North Carolina. Public Radio is a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.